Curse

The Josip · Jun 16, 2010, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Psychic scythe

Me/D

Skills:
Asuran Scan
Mystic Sweep
Eremite's Attack
Psychic Instability [E]
Aura of Holy Might
By Ural's Hammer
Illusion of Weakness
Conviction

Stats:
12 Fast Casting
12 Scythe Mastery
6 Earth Prayers
7 Illusion Magic

Weapon: customized zealous scythe, 15% while enchanted, +5 armor

Insignia: Prodigy - IMO, very underrated insignia

Heroes: any decent hero setup which can keep SoH and Balth Spirit on you, and buff you with Splinter. Anything else is a nice bonus.
(more on heroes below)

Total armor: 99-104
60 from mesmer armor
+5 armor from scythe mod
+10 to +15 armor from Prodigy (req easily met when needed)
+24 armor from Conviction (overpowered skill IMO)

50% block from Conviction, permanent if needed

AoE knockdown
With a consumable that reduces recharge, this can be as frequent as 4sec every 6 seconds. Almost permanent knockdown.

139 higher health due to Illusion of Weakness which also serves as a cover enchantment (always cast this after precasting SoH and Balth Spirit, and prebattle cover that one with AoHM).

---

Theorycrafting vs practical implementation:

Theorycrafting: "this build is inferior to warriors and assassin and it sucks, why would you use it? A mesmer with a scythe, who on earth would use that? Are you crazy?"

Practical implementation: this build is superior (= cleans zone faster) to every other mesmer build in many PvE areas. Entire mobs can die in seconds. You're no assassin or warrior or dervish, but physical damage overall is that good.

Note: this is not a standalone build. You need heroes to support you. It's all about synergy.

---

Heroes I am using right now:
(still testing for optimal performance)

Rt/x
16/13/4
Herald insignia, 40/40 restoration set

Spirit Siphon
Signet of Spirits [E]
Ancestors' Rage
Splinter Weapon
Bloodsong
Mend Body and Soul
Life
Protective Was Kaolai

N/Mo
16/10/10/3
Tormentor insignia, 40/40 death set

Putrid Explosion
Weaken Armor
Discord [E]
Putrid Bile
Enfeebling Blood
Withering Aura
Ressurection Chant
Balthazar's Spirit

E/Mo
13/10/10
Survivor insignia, staff with enchantment mod

Ether Renewal [E]
Aura of Restoration
Infuse Health
Protective Spirit
Spirit Bond
Shield Guardian
Aegis
Strength of Honor

The Drunkard · Jun 17, 2010, 01:53 AM // 01:53

I've been toying around with this build some, and I have a few comments.

-Without balthazar's spirit, you have major energy problems. I've been replacing ermites with club of a thousand bears, and it works quite nicely when PI's recharging.
-Why sig of clumsiness? You deal more damage autoattacking. I'd switch it to distortion so meele can't spike you.
-If you don't have any prot on you, consider yourself dead in HM. Damage in HM is also a bit lackluster compared with ineptitude, though I haven't tried judges insight yet.
-Sneak attack is another nice skill to use to keep meele from destroying you, though you loose out on damage.

Chthon · Jun 17, 2010, 01:57 AM // 01:57

OK, a melee mesmer is a silly idea any way you cut it, but we can at least try to synergize something between the melee and the mesmer.

If you're going to use PI, maybe consider going hammer for things like Renewing Smash.

The Drunkard · Jun 17, 2010, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

OK, a melee mesmer is a silly idea any way you cut it, but we can at least try to synergize something between the melee and the mesmer.

If you're going to use PI, maybe consider going hammer for things like Renewing Smash.

Any prof with asuran scan and AoHM will be hitting in the +100's; this build is much better than the illusionary weapon garbage.

When testing out this build, I found PI useful when I wanted to shutdown a big-payoff skill. Otherwise I would simply autoattack.

I tried using a hammer, but the damage is pathetic compared to using a scythe. You'd be better off with PI and SQ.

FoxBat · Jun 17, 2010, 04:21 AM // 04:21

You can drop a point or two of FC thanks to runes, and use Conviction @6earth if worried about survivability.

Another crazy thing to try would be channeling, get your energy back on various spells at least.

The Josip · Jun 17, 2010, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

OK, a melee mesmer is a silly idea any way you cut it, but we can at least try to synergize something between the melee and the mesmer.

I don't think it's a silly idea, considering that after I vanquished some Nightfall zones the build overall seems to clear these zones very fast. Further testing showed it clears at many, if not all zones, faster than any other mesmer build. Is this weaker than critical scythe sin? In terms of damage yes, but you also have PI serving as some utility. Besides, that's not the point. I wanted to make a melee build so that me and others who use mesmer as a main character don't get bored playing the same thing all over again. Moreover, I wanted to make a build competitive not with other profession builds, but a build that will be competitive with mesmer builds. And this one is IMO from what I can tell one of the strongest mesmer builds. I know it doesn't look like that on paper, but in practice it actually works. There is no "babysit this target for 10 seconds" inefficient strategy that many mesmer builds have. You do smack smack and move on.

Quote:

If you're going to use PI, maybe consider going hammer for things like Renewing Smash.

I did consider that skill. There is a synergy, yes. The reason I decided against it is that scythe is overall more useful. And because PI in practice works like any other interrupt: you're not going to keep foes on the ground 4/8 seconds, but 4 out of x seconds (on average). And that I may not necessarily be hitting the same foes I KDed. Unlike Earth Shaker, PI has long range and I intend to use it and do so.
Hammer has awful attacks. It's slow, and Renewing is only decent 1sec attack skill. Belly Smash is practically not needed because in my team build melee attackers don't do much damage anyway (minion wall, Aegis), and you're more likely to KD a caster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drunkard

Why sig of clumsiness? You deal more damage autoattacking.

After further testing: agree with you.

Quote:

I'd switch it to distortion so meele can't spike you.

Distortion is a no-no, it will eat your energy like crazy and I didn't need it in practice. Conviction is 10x better.

Quote:

If you don't have any prot on you, consider yourself dead in HM.

I don't play NM at all. Everything said is HM exclusively. As for no prot in HM, I don't use prot when playing other mesmer builds - my AP Discordway has no Prot spirit. A heresy I'm sure, but I vanquished numerous areas with 7 people like that (8th guy was paying for VQ and AFKing).
With this build, as I stated up there, I'm using Vekk as ER prot / smite anyway. Whether he casts prot spirit on me or someone else - nothing is wasted. It's all about good team build, about good positioning, about timing, about proper identifying of dangerous targets and PIing them.

Quote:

Damage in HM is also a bit lackluster compared with ineptitude, though I haven't tried judges insight yet.

Damage is greater than Ineptitude one.

Quote:

Sneak attack is another nice skill to use to keep meele from destroying you, though you loose out on damage.

Ok I see a lot of melee hate here, so just curious, when you played this build you were often dying from melee, or what was it? In what areas you played?
What heroes did you use?

Sneak attack is what I used with Dervish when fighting Bison in the tournament, it works as great as Shadowsong. But the question here is, is Sneak attack worth leaving at home Asuran or BUH/Drunken or AoHM?

Quote:

Without balthazar's spirit, you have major energy problems.

Not major but some, of course. You don't have dervish or assassin primary attribute. The everlasting "how to solve mesmer energy problem" appears here too. You can also say that damage will fall without SoH and Splinter, but that's why you have 8 players in the team. And unlike with other mesmer builds, here at least you can have some synergy.

Quote:

I tried using a hammer, but the damage is pathetic compared to using a scythe.

Exactly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxbat

You can drop a point or two of FC thanks to runes, and use Conviction @6earth if worried about survivability.

Another crazy thing to try would be channeling, get your energy back on various spells at least.

Conviction is great, agreed.

Channeling didn't work for me. I need to stop and cast that skill which breaks momentum or means that I lose damage if mid-combat (things I wanted to avoid). And energy gain in practice just didn't seem high enough to justify the skill. With zealous scythe, if I have lots of enemies in front of me I better swing.

Lanier · Jun 17, 2010, 10:39 PM // 22:39

hmm, an interesting build concept. I think I tried melee on a mesmer before (with daggers) but that was just to screw around. I'll have to give this a try.

And I wouldn't worry about survivability so long as you micro prot spirit on yourself before any dangerous groups.

The Josip · Jun 17, 2010, 11:55 PM // 23:55

I've removed Signet of Clumsiness because of increased damage output, so indeed it's not worth a skill slot. Autoattack will overall be more helpful.

I've changed heroes a bit. One of them has Weaken Armor now. Yea I like big numbers as well. I dropped MM bomber. This build kills way too fast for him.. by the time his minions arrive everyone is dead.
Right now heroes are: EMo prot with SoH, RtNe channeler with Weaken Armor and Enfeebling, and RtMo channeler with Balth Spirit and MBaS.

Results so far show that this build kills faster than AP spammer or Ineptitude.

Based on my estimation of course.

maxxfury · Jun 18, 2010, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I

Results so far show that this build kills faster than AP spammer or Ineptitude.

Based on my estimation of course.

^^
Everyone with a clue on how the game works, knows that well supported buffed physical(s) steamroll thru stuff hard!

So a 'gimped' well supported buffed caster faking been a physical will steamroll thru stuff almost as hard.
Especially when you consider how much easier and more efficient it is to buff melee over casters for damage outputs.

Oh and erm? lolpve? or what ever the cool kids say when you dont run cookies

The Josip · Jun 18, 2010, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

^^
Everyone with a clue on how the game works, knows that well supported buffed physical(s) steamroll thru stuff hard!

So a 'gimped' well supported buffed caster faking been a physical will steamroll thru stuff almost as hard.

Well I have to admit I was somewhat surprised how much damage even a mesmer with a scythe can do.

So the best mesmer build is, for all general purposes, a scythe build.

Yay Guild Wars.

maxxfury · Jun 18, 2010, 12:57 AM // 00:57

I think it says more about scythes (and melee in general) than mesmers tbh xD

WhiteAsIce · Jun 18, 2010, 07:42 AM // 07:42

I thought this was gonna be an Illusionary Weaponry build...

The Josip · Jun 18, 2010, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteAsIce

I thought this was gonna be an Illusionary Weaponry build...

There, changed thread name.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

I think it says more about scythes (and melee in general) than mesmers tbh xD

Well don't just stand there, help me with hero skillbars

I'll edit first post then keep editing as I test more.

The Josip · Jun 23, 2010, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Did HM Vloxen and Bloodstone, plus few dungeons in NM and Rand, since I'm doing whatever I've left. Few other VQs too.

Ranger Jaap · Jun 24, 2010, 01:12 PM // 13:12

i'm going to try it sounds interesting

The Josip · Jun 26, 2010, 10:32 PM // 22:32

* Included hero sets I use in first post. Feedback welcome.

* Did Shards of Orr, HM. It was easier than when I did it in NM with a caster build. I was prepared to use Powerstones of Courage but surprisingly didn't need a single one. Soul of Fendi Nin was losing health very very fast, also thanks to AoHM (holy damage). The rest of the dungeon went good, despite all the blindness spam.

So far the only area where I don't enjoy this build are few sections of Shiverpeaks with all the Water Trident spam. Not enjoyable to be melee and spend most of the time on the ground.

Edit:

* Kathandrax HM done as well. No problems. My favorite trick when fighting Ilsundur (who died fast btw).. flag heroes in front of the boulder when party health gets low. No death penalty on boulder deaths

Note: I used ranger henchman in Shard of Orr and in Kathandrax.

Edit #2: Did Oola's Lab in HM. Not sure why, but it seemed easier than in NM. Most of the dungeon I spent C+spacing. Also, for some weird reason, I wasn't the target of Blinding flash.

reaper with no name · Jul 09, 2010, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Oh great, another one.

Stop stealing our schtick, dude!

On a more serious note, you admit outright that this is inferior to warriors and sins that use scythes, so why on earth would you ever use it? Yes, yes, you said that it's superior to anything else a mesmer can do (which I doubt, but I won't argue about that). But even if it's true, that wouldn't make this good, it would only make mesmers as a whole useless.

maxxfury · Jul 09, 2010, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Oh great, another one.

Stop stealing our schtick, dude!

On a more serious note, you admit outright that this is inferior to warriors and sins that use scythes, so why on earth would you ever use it? Yes, yes, you said that it's superior to anything else a mesmer can do (which I doubt, but I won't argue about that). But even if it's true, that wouldn't make this good, it would only make mesmers as a whole useless.

Its more the skills you get with a scythe, and the buffs casters can apply to the scythe wielder that makes even a 12 spec pretty monstrous..All you need to do is manage your energy to spam the 1/2attack skills and keep your own buffs rolling... Its more the ability to buff the crap out of melee and the scythe working well at 12 spec if you can afford the spam.

Phys steamroll even if its not on the optimal class tho i wont try to teach/tell you anything about a derv or how people use the scythe (ive read your posts on dervs/scythes with the math ect btw mate :P)

But indeed, inferior to sin, warrior, ranger, derv and para..and almost certainly also inferior to necro w/ own curses, rit w/ own weapons spells, monk w/ own soh & smites and maybe also elem w/ better initial e-pool for more spammy spammy...

tho whether its the best? subjective to if you want easily & heavily buffable frontline damage or if you want blah blah blah...cant be bothered ...lol its all been said one way or another in here already :P

The Josip · Jul 09, 2010, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Oh great, another one.

Stop stealing our schtick, dude!

I've a spear too!

Quote:

On a more serious note, you admit outright that this is inferior to warriors and sins that use scythes, so why on earth would you ever use it?

Well, Psychic Instability makes it different from pure offensive assassin.

And second, because I am not playing the assassin of course

I've only mesmer now. I deleted all my other PvE chars - including FoW Dervish - because I simply don't have time, nor desire, and GW has become "main character" game, with all the titles. If I'm playing one character why not do many things instead of same build all the time? I would be bored to death. Different builds are fun.

Quote:

Yes, yes, you said that it's superior to anything else a mesmer can do (which I doubt, but I won't argue about that).

No, I completely understand. I would not have believed myself either, but I VQed all 3 continents plus EotN with various mesmer builds and team builds, and this one proved great. Oh yea, all dungeons too, HM. I'm almost GWAMM and started this newest mesmer less than a year ago.

Quote:

But even if it's true, that wouldn't make this good, it would only make mesmers as a whole useless.

Welcome to the world of Mesmers. Started 2005 and still going.

Biofobico · Jul 09, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Would love to see some screenshots of that dungeons